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jc
Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 35

    09/06/09 at 10:46 AM
  Reply with quote#1

Hey Tim,
I have been gone from the boards for awhile - too much medical, work & then just not enough playing with Magic!  Actually, this last month I have been doing double time with Magic - riding her about 4 days out of the week.  She is doing so well - and I am learning so much and having a blast.  Because of a variety of things, I have left her at Troys, but it has worked out well as Troy stops and talks me through things and works with me everytime I go out to ride, and I get to sit in and listen to his other lessons - and watch him work his horses - so it has really been good for me.  Anyway, Magic has one issue that we just can't figure out how to fix.  When she is put out to pasture, and you walk away - or if she is in her pasture and someone walks out to the barn - she comes up to the gate and paws on it.  It has become a problem since the area she has been in has concrete at the base of the gate - so she is pawing on concrete and she bruised her foot, and it abscessed.  She healed fine - but I worry about it happening again and again.  How do I address this issue?  She used to paw when I had her at home - to the point where I had to replace a gate that she damaged so badly.  I thought when she was home it was because she was alone - but she is with other horses.  Troy said it really looks almost like separation anxiety to him - like you would see from a orphan.  (I can email her history - she wasn't actually orphaned, but certainly didn't have a good mothering experience as a baby - kind of ugly).   Even though I replaced my gates with wire-filled gates so she can't get her leg through and break it, I know when I bring her home I worry about what she will do.  Anyway - any advice on what I can do?  
Tim
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Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 279

    09/06/09 at 10:17 PM
  Reply with quote#2

I must confess I was a bit worried since we hadn't heard from you in so long.

The pawing thing is probably separation anxiety related but I suspect that it's tied in with the anxiety she feels when she thinks that it might be feeding time or treat time.
The reason that I seldom use feed or treats for motivators or rewards is because when you introduce feed into the equasion, most horses instinctively flip immediately to the reactionary side of the brain and it builds anxiety which in turn builds energy and excitement and horses are incapable of thought when they're excited.
You've probably stopped with the treats but that doesn't mean that she don't revert to old habits every time she sees you/humans coming.
Just like any other habit with a horse, both the good and the bad, they die hard. That's why we work so hard to reinforce good habits and never let a bad habit get started.

There are a few things you could do to discourage it if it continues to be a problem. For one, you could take the time to make her feel uncomfortable some how every time she does it. It doesn't have to be any real discomfort, any amount will do over time. There are lots of ways of doing that but what you don't want to do is go over and soothe her anxiety by comforting her. That seems the thing to do but what it does is gives her relief and she continues to associate your presence with relief, which is usually a good thing, and something we strive for, but in this case, it's working against her/you by rewarding and reinforcing the anxiety she's feeling and causes it to get worse.
Another thing you could do is make sure that she don't get fed every time you/some human comes around. And definitely don't be giving her any treats.

We tend to confuse excitement/anxiety with happiness/appreciation when we give a treat to a horse but what we're really doing is creating undesirable instinctive behavior that progressively worsens. I might even go so far as to pick up a few pebbles before I went out there and toss them at her til she stops pawing before I approach close enough for her to smell me (cuz I don't really want her associating me with discomfort which she will if she can smell you). You'd think that would make her dislike you but the truth is... horses are stupid and she won't even realize that it's you tossing them... she'll think that the pawing gods are angry with her... not really because horses don't posess the ability to reason, but if a pebble should fall from the heavens and land on her every time she starts pawing, she'll soon associate pawing with discomfort and without even thinking about it, she'll instictively stop that stuff. Even when she sees your arm moving, she still won't put 2 and 2 together so it won't count against you.

She may even quckly learn that when your arm moves, something taps her but even then.... She won't realize that you're actually causing it. Like the Beverly Hillbillies never understood why every time they heard that mysterious bell music, someone soon showed up at the door. After a while, just the movement of your arm might be enough discomfort to discourage that, even if you should miss with the pebble.

Of course I'd have to see it a couple times to determine exactly what causes it to be absolutely sure, but whatever the case, she needs to stop that for all the reasons you listed, plus, that kind of insecurity can show up in other places like performance or manners and it can become a safety issue, amongst other things, and we want her calm and confident, not anxious and insecure.
If you ARE still giving her treats... You should stop for a while. Then, never, under any circumstances, give her a treat if she's expecting it or anticipating it or even hoping for it. The only time you should ever give a horse a treat is when it's totally unexpected, which usually means, very seldom.

A good rubbing/sratching, done right so it actually feels good to the horse instead of just irritating her, will gain you more favor with her than any treat ever could anyway because she learns to associate you with feeling good and relaxation... Relaxation is the first thing we want them to feel when they see us... not anxiety.. whatever the source of that anxiety may be.


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jc
Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 35

    09/07/09 at 08:02 AM
  Reply with quote#3

Thanks for the quick response! (and sorry to worry you- but I'll admit it is nice to know someone out there worried besides my family!  I had a few scary moments there - MD Anderson found a melanoma on me - but I am so blessed!  removed it all, and found out that a genetic problem puts me at a 50% increased risk for it, so I have to stay out of the sun from 11 to 4pm - I'm trying to talk the docs into writing a prescription for a covered arena - think the IRS would go for that?)  Yes, I'll admit I used to give her treats - but that stopped when she hit about 2 and started to get pretty pushy about them.  I will say that well over 95% of her bad habits are virtually gone.  (And I know that they can come back quickly if I REVERT back to what started them to begin with- I have learned so much!)  I just bought a few bags of smooth small rock from Home Depot for a spot in my garden - but I guess I now have a better use for them  (and I'm a pretty good shot too) I'm sure it will take some time, but I won't give up on it.  Magic has come so far, and I am so proud of her - and I would say this is her last really bad habit (well, I'm sure I'll decide there are more later on - but for now I'm happy with her behavior).  I know that what I tried in the past probably just reinforced it, especially thinking about how I would just go up to the fence to "comfort" her!

Since I won't be bringing her home for another month, I will at least try to get Troy and his crew recruited to help - and I even have the pebbles to supply them with.  It's funny, but even though all the horses at Troy's are "high dollar bloodlines"  Magic has wormed her way into all of their hearts with her funny personality.  I'll give it a couple of months, and report back on it.  I'm actually scouring the internet for a cheapo video so I can start watching myself ride, so maybe I can improve a bit - so if I finally find one, I'll take some pictures of her in action.  She really only does it when she is wanting attention.  When she was home, and I would step outside and she would start, I did get her to stop by my just putting my hands on my hips, staring at her and yelling quit.  She would immediately stop and stand there and stare back at me.  But would go right back to banging on the gate if I turned around or walked away.  I will say that I don't recall her doing it at feeding time.  I had her in a routine about feeding:  she would have to stand still and put her head in her halter, and then I would tie her up - and then feed her, so perhaps that routine removed the "feeding time" issue.  But the treats are another thing.  I was bad at first, and use to give her a treat just for coming to see me.  When I stopped the treats, I replaced them with lots of rubbing - everyplace - until I would get those "Shrek lips"  - and believe me - Magic really gets into a good rub down.  - Well - I'm off to ride before it gets to late in the day - I'll check in later! And thanks again! 

(and by the way - just read that ridiculous thread about "XXXreally lame" on THE - Magic never once acted nasty or bad when her foot hurt - she limped and favored it, but was respectful the whole time!  She didn't even act up about her foot being doctored!)
Tim
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Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 279

    09/07/09 at 03:59 PM
  Reply with quote#4

I'm glad she's doing well. You don't necessarily have to chunk pebbles at her... You could do just about anything that would make her uncomfortable enough to stop pawing. Maybe just move aggressively toward her like you're gonna bite her head off and soften and stop/retreat the second she stops pawing or backs away. Anything to startle her just enough to cause her to quit. You just have to be consistent enough with it so she subconsciously associates your aggressive behavior, or the discomfort, with the pawing. But the pebbles might be easier... Just make sure you don't land them on her head cuz even a little pebble could cause injury to her eyes... but they won't hurt anything anywhere else on her body. It IS a plea for attention but she needs to associate it with negative attention til it stops.

Yup, another ridiculous discussion at the THE. But people have to know that they don't have to tolerate misbehavior from their horses on any level and when the 'professionals' start making excuses for it, or anybody else who holds any amount of credibility... people get the wrong idea and I can't bear not to inject a little reality into the discussion. And being as how it was the unstable and ignorant, yet boisterous and slanderous Bea, I was free to opine since she tried to smear my reputation on the very same subject. I spent a couple months with one of her former horses and it was an ill mannered, ill started horse that acted just like the one she was claiming must be lame because it was acting up. You must have read it just before it disappeared. I ain't sure why Slim took it down but he didn't need to remove it on my account. But he ain't no better than the rest. He'd rather insult people than encourage productive discussions.


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jc
Registered: 08/31/08
Posts: 35

    09/07/09 at 07:17 PM
  Reply with quote#5

Well, that is exactly why I only read - and try not to post on THE - I got into it one time - and that was enough for me.  And you are so right about "professionals" or those that hold themselves out to be - they should take some responsiblity for what they spew!  I know that I caused or at the least contributed to a lot of the bad habits we worked through with Magic, and there was a time that I would have loved to hear that it was anything BUT MY BEHAVIOR that was the problem. Of course, Magic and I wouldn't have come as far as we have, she probably would have turned into one of those dangerously spoiled horses that it sounds like you get to deal with on too many occassions...if I had continued to rely upon the advice given on that forum...well - who knows, ...
Anyway - I'll be careful about not plunking them on - or near her head.  She definately has a big enough behind, I don't think I'll need to get anywhere near her head.  I did try at one time to do the agressive thing to chase her away from the gate when she was at home - and she just turned that into a game.  She would run away, and then just when I thought we were good - and I would turn to walk away I would hear "clink" - and look and there would be her hoof, resting calmly on the gate, her staring at me, waiting to start the game again (and I swear she had a smirk on her face!) ...so I think I would rather try the pebble route for a while.  (it's terrible when your horse is smarter than you!)
Tim
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Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 279

    09/12/09 at 05:54 PM
  Reply with quote#6

....AND....

Most people have the opposite problem by accident, so it ain't so hard to do if you need to.

If the problem persists... You can always do what most people do to make their horses dread seeing them coming. Walk straight at her like a predator while hiding the halter behind your back, then, slowly and quietly ease up on her, sneak a halter on her.... Then once she's caught, immediately switch your body language from sneaky/passive and turn assertive/agressive, snatch on her face as a command to follow you and put her straight to work. Then, when you get done working her, pull the halter and chase her off. Once she associates seeing you with working and unpleasantry, she'll get hard to catch. You'll want to be somewhere between 'hard to ignore' and 'hard to catch'. 

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TIM BERNSEN
315 C.R.664 Devine, Texas 78016
tim@timbernsen.com  or  timberwolf_lt@yahoo.com
Cell:  830-931-4856                  House:  830-665-5991